Curse

Woodelf Archer · Apr 18, 2011, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

yes, its another known problem that there is few to no middle gvg experience guilds, or player base, for that record. cba to discuss the reasons behind that thou, it has been done before too many times already.

Yeh I understand we're 20ish pages into this, so most things have been said. How did the QQ mentoring program go? I've been really out of touch with GW pvp for a good while.

*lemming* · Apr 18, 2011, 10:20 AM // 10:20

There was a QQ mentorship program? If that's referring to kiSu, I always felt like they could have done a lot more with Billiard's connections and the high amount of interest in the project.

Woodelf Archer · Apr 18, 2011, 10:35 AM // 10:35

I don't know, I wasn't around, just reading something on the previous page.

Is there anything else the community can do? The only thing I can think of is Anet putting more backing into GvG but with the way GW2 is looking, i.e major PvE focus, I cannot see that happening.

floor · Apr 18, 2011, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Unless you are forming a complete PUG team which can be difficult, wait times are nowhere near 30 minutes, in most cases even 15 minutes would be an unusually long time to be waiting around. If you are forming a team for gvg, Guild chat was created for a reason, speak to each other, when everyone is free meet in the guild hall and form up. (assuming people have some idea of what bars to play, this takes <5 mins??) Waiting in the gh for other players to show up is very boring, so make sure people are actually free and wanting to play BEFORE you try and form up. If they are just finishing a quest or something, go do a couple of runs in RA so ur not sat around getting bored.

Forming groups is basically a communication skill, the better u know ur team mates the easier it is. A lot of pvp guilds which only have 8-10 players ( ie - all know each other quite well) will all sit on vent together even when not pvping just chatting about stuff, good communication skills make it infinitely easier to form up.

inb4 wait times for matches are awful.
During euro hours: 2-3 minute wait for a ladder gvg maximum.
During American hours: Normally about 5-10 minute wait, sometimes less.
During Asian hours: Forget it, nobody plays since anet removed the asian server 3 years ago, apart from a cuple of americans who stay up rly late, or some no life euros who dont have school or a job to go to.

tl;dr The better u know ur team mates, the less time it takes to form up. And wait times for matches may not be as small as they were 4 years ago, but waiting a couple of minutes for a match is still not as bad as some ppl make it out to be.

Missing HB · Apr 18, 2011, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

During euro hours: 2-3 minute wait for a ladder gvg maximum.
During American hours: Normally about 5-10 minute wait, sometimes less.
During Asian hours: Forget it, nobody plays since anet removed the asian server 3 years ago, apart from a cuple of americans who stay up rly late, or some no life euros who dont have school or a job to go to.

I hope you realize that it means it's impossible to play GvG from about 1 am until 6pm GMT( already tried many times to play on these hours anyway there's noone to fight apart of AT's)....Pretty sure not only no life euros or jobless people do play on those hours

floor · Apr 18, 2011, 11:58 AM // 11:58

1am -5am GMT is american hours....

Between about 5am and 10am the ladder is full of 1200+ rating guilds syncing with each other for champ points (yes this still happens, people are just smart enough to stay off obs mode now), then there is the B AT at around 12GMT, which normally has about 4 teams in it + a bunch of 2nd account guilds who forfeit, and then there are a few other guilds who play ladder, a couple of asians and usually a few euros. But in comparison to peak euro hours (7-11pm GMT), or even american hours, (1am - 5am GMT), gvg at this time of day is totally dead.

So to correct my earlier post if u prefer, between about 5am - 5pm GMT, you WILL wait much longer for matches as there is significantly less people playing gvg. but yes if u wait long enough u can still get an opponent. Fortunately, i guess around 75% of the gvg playerbase is euro, 20% is american, and only 5% or so are japanese/korean/australian or whoever else would want to play during these "dead hours", so looking at the big picture very few people are affected by longer waits between these times.

Billiard · Apr 18, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

There was a QQ mentorship program? If that's referring to kiSu, I always felt like they could have done a lot more with Billiard's connections and the high amount of interest in the project.

At one time we had 5 guilds working with players of varying skill levels. One of the main issues with the brand new PvPers is that once they got some experience, they always wanted to move up to a better group of players rather than stick around and mentor more newbies who were just coming in. Mentoring newbies could be a lot of work with only intrinsic rewards, and usually when I got outside mentors they would only work with folks who had some experience.

Also, it was always really hard to get new PvPers to realize that it took hundreds if not thousands of hours of experience in order to reach a decent level of performance. As such they had a lot of catching up to do. We had a bootcamp of sorts for new players to practice various builds in RA, but a lot of folks didn't like practicing before they ran a build in a GvG, not realizing that their inexperience with the build was such a drag on the rest of the team.

Anyway I just this month took down the kiSu 100 person Vent after running it for 3 years. I might put up a mumble server instead and have thought about kick starting kiSu once again. The main problem I have now is that I teach nights and have a ton of work to do until the middle of May. This summer though I am pretty much off. If some of the old kiSu folks or old mentors are interested, I could start organizing things again.

Jacobbs · Apr 20, 2011, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billiard

If some of the old kiSu folks or old mentors are interested, I could start organizing things again.

I'm kickin' around just PvE'ing but will be in China for part of the summer. I'm down for playing.

Deviant · Apr 20, 2011, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billiard

Anyway I just this month took down the kiSu 100 person Vent after running it for 3 years. I might put up a mumble server instead and have thought about kick starting kiSu once again. The main problem I have now is that I teach nights and have a ton of work to do until the middle of May. This summer though I am pretty much off. If some of the old kiSu folks or old mentors are interested, I could start organizing things again.

My suggestion would be to combine efforts. As I understand it there are multiple guilds that Lemming and Happy have been working with on gaining GvG experience. Perhaps those guilds could be combined into a single kiSu guild leading the alliance?

That way Lemming and Happy could continue to mentor inside those other guilds, new players that don't have a real spot in those guilds could go to the kiSu guild, and everyone would be able to form PUGs for extra practice / more informal play.

I tried to help out at various stages of kiSu in the past, and would be willing to help again where I can. I have a new baby so my time is limited short-term, but as a collaborative effort we might see even more traction on getting players converting / participating in GvG.

Billiard · Apr 20, 2011, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Good to see you two again Jacobbs and Deviant! I will work on contacting folks and building up some infrastructure now as I can, and hopefully can get back in game again playing soon as well.

Missing HB · Apr 21, 2011, 07:14 AM // 07:14

A bit off topic but , what's up with that poll concerning ladder reset?? An other thing forgotten or ..?

Next Top Runner · Apr 23, 2011, 12:27 AM // 00:27

I never had much interest in PvP in this game because there is ONE build that reigns supreme for all which makes it hardly any fun...I will stick to what I am good at which is running.

The only fun PvP I ever did was 1v1. Most build-diverse PvP opportunity in GW.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 23, 2011, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Next Top Runner

I never had much interest in PvP in this game because there is ONE build that reigns supreme for all which makes it hardly any fun...I will stick to what I am good at which is running.

The only fun PvP I ever did was 1v1. Most build-diverse PvP opportunity in GW.

You should try BYOB (Bring Your Own Build), it wont win an AT, but it is always fun.

EDIT: You also do a lot of running, there is a reason people call it Mario Kart.

Why? · Apr 25, 2011, 02:01 AM // 02:01

as was mentioned, the largest problem with gw pvp is the crazy amount of experience needed to even have a chance. That one steppingstone will make it impossible for the majority of players to ever play it. It is why I personally am not interested. There are much better games where you can pretty much jump right on without spending countless hours training with other people to be decent.

But GW2 will have pvp, and it will be good. Just because they haven't announced much about it does not mean it will not be there. There are reports the main peoples have been pvping in GW2 for over a thousand hours.

pinkeyflower · Apr 25, 2011, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why?

as was mentioned, the largest problem with gw pvp is the crazy amount of experience needed to even have a chance. That one steppingstone will make it impossible for the majority of players to ever play it. It is why I personally am not interested. There are much better games where you can pretty much jump right on without spending countless hours training with other people to be decent.

But GW2 will have pvp, and it will be good. Just because they haven't announced much about it does not mean it will not be there. There are reports the main peoples have been pvping in GW2 for over a thousand hours.

Doesn't mean that PvP will be good. Remember most devs are never amazingly good at their own game and simply testing it to want they think is good may not suffice for the entire population. It can only be balanced when top players start playing it.

Ritchiebaxter · Apr 25, 2011, 06:20 PM // 18:20

My guild plays all Pvp but not GvG. We are a competitive guild and don't like to lose to much. This is why we don't play GvG.
We all know that after some hard crushing defeats our heads will hang, moral will drop and that will be the last time we play GvG.
I am sure this is what pve players will do when they try GvG for the first time Most people can tolerate a few losses but eventually give up. Its no fun to get completely smashed by veteran GvG-ers.
So in a nut shell, the time it takes to learn GvG and become fairly decent or even a mediocre guild far exceeds the tolerance time off new players

Zeldawind · Apr 25, 2011, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritchiebaxter

My guild plays all Pvp but not GvG. We are a competitive guild and don't like to lose to much. This is why we don't play GvG.
We all know that after some hard crushing defeats our heads will hang, moral will drop and that will be the last time we play GvG.
I am sure this is what pve players will do when they try GvG for the first time Most people can tolerate a few losses but eventually give up. Its no fun to get completely smashed by veteran GvG-ers.
So in a nut shell, the time it takes to learn GvG and become fairly decent or even a mediocre guild far exceeds the tolerance time off new players

I wonder if more people are having issues whit this.

If so then wouldn't a implemention of a uhm i'll call it league system, more or less like the guru tournament has.

That every month is a competition for every league and that the monthly tournaments are like qualifier rounds to determine if you need to promote to a higher level. This way you get pooled as starter whit other starters, or not really good teams and you slowly but surely get higher if you're better than the current league which you're in.

Edit:
Supplement, the thing is i don't know if it's feasable to implement such a system (and i gues it will also mean that champion title track would be kinda off the track since there is no real way to give fair points to it, or is there?) since i can imagine it's quite a bit of work for anet to implement and maintain such a system?

On a side note:
Btw i'm a former GvG-er who has recently came back, last serious GvG i've done whit my old squad was the Celestial tournament. After that i kinda hang around in the Clan Detained's smurf guild Exorsus Nox and British Bulldogs for HA'ing and a tad of GvG whit them.

But right now GvG isn't really interesting for me to get back into to stale meta, no VoD-play, NPC area is a joke. The old school splitting style which i love'd seems kinda well pointless in this form of GvG.
Next to that university costs to much time during the week so only playing during the weekend isn't enough to really get back into GvG.

Otherwise i think i would try to get a bit into GvG again whit a guild who's only interested for fun GvG and just play onorthodox builds whitout the necessity to participate in tournaments and all.

Deviant · Apr 26, 2011, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Why?

as was mentioned, the largest problem with gw pvp is the crazy amount of experience needed to even have a chance. That one steppingstone will make it impossible for the majority of players to ever play it. It is why I personally am not interested. There are much better games where you can pretty much jump right on without spending countless hours training with other people to be decent.

But GW2 will have pvp, and it will be good. Just because they haven't announced much about it does not mean it will not be there. There are reports the main peoples have been pvping in GW2 for over a thousand hours.

If a game is made so that it's "easy to jump in" and be competitive with top-tier players then top-tier players themselves have little incentive to participate. There should be a disparity in outcome and difficulty for non-PUG organized PvP format. Honestly, I hope the same is true for GW2.

However, it's important to note that the measure of jumping into a game shouldn't be the ability to compete at a high level, but the ability for a team to at least have fun by understanding the basics. At this point one of the difficulties is that most of the players who do participate in GvG have literally years of experience on new players.

What's the solution? I think it's a combination of a couple factors. First it's a matter of arming new GvG players with the building blocks to be effective even if ultimately unsuccessful in winning a high percentage of games. Then it's incentive for players to play even if they aren't winning.

The latter is up to ArenaNet, and it's something I hope they will do. If such a change were to take place then you might see an influx of PvE players playing, which means more teams would have matches against teams who are also inexperienced.

The former is up to players like Lemming, Happy, Billiard, and others to provide an environment that fosters improving players and team's skill sets. What I really wish someone would do is start creating clinics where they invite good players to scrimmage and discuss / show some of the nuances of playing the characters in an organized PvP format. Then upload them to Youtube or somewhere that players could reference at their own pace.

Missing HB · Apr 26, 2011, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeldawind

If so then wouldn't a implemention of a uhm i'll call it league system, more or less like the guru tournament has.

That every month is a competition for every league and that the monthly tournaments are like qualifier rounds to determine if you need to promote to a higher level. This way you get pooled as starter whit other starters, or not really good teams and you slowly but surely get higher if you're better than the current league which you're in.

League system permanently wouldn't work , since the number of guilds playing is very low and wouldn't change a lot .... Either players wouldn't face anyone on low leagues , either they would fight people from better leagues and it's same as today....

Sk8tborderx · May 05, 2011, 11:18 AM // 11:18

I have finally gotten around to creating a guild for new PvP players, or those who just want to give GvG a try. Right now I am trying to just get members and farm the GvG Zaishen Combat quest running BYOB (Bring Your Own Build). The only requirements are that you have mumble, a mic, and are willing to listen to calls.

The guild will be rage free, and I am trying to create a good environment for new players to get their feet wet, and hopefully increase interest in GvG. If you would like to join PM me here on the forums or in-game. IGN - Josh Ruchko.